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Italian Spruce tops..the search
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=4005		 Page 1 of 2
Author:  John Kinnaird [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:14 am ]
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I have a customer who specified an Italian Spruce top. I have searched all the sponsors web sites and found none.   So, I have two questions about this.

1. Do I really need Italian Spruce. I know that it is Pices abies and that it supposedly grows all over the colder parts of Europe. What would be an acceptable substitute that you guys sell?

2. If I really do need Italian, then where do I get the stuff?

Thanks
John
Author:  LanceK [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 12:57 am ]
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Try Rivolta OR
LMI, they carry some Italian.
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 1:01 am ]
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Try Rivolta

Lance beat me to it...

Arnt38692.3766898148
Author:  Colin S [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:21 am ]
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Does he definitely want real "Italian" from Italy?

I've always preferred Swiss or Austrian for it's cross grain stiffness. Just as Redwood is WRC with bells on, I always think of Swiss/Austrian as Italian with Bells on. And heh, it's all from the Alps. Otherwise yes for good Italian it's Rivolta, but don't expect lightening service if my experience is anything to go by, but Mattia can probably help you more as he has visited their yard.


ColinColin S38692.4323032407
Author:  RussellR [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:25 am ]
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John

If you definately want Italian.

GG Delazier (Not Sure than the right spelling) who comes on the forum might be able to help you.

I believe Tim Mcknight has/or is getting some tops from him, so he probably has contact details.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 2:25 am ]
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I recently faced this very same issue.. and luckily another luthier helped me out and sold me one from his stash.

Rivolta looks good, but I seemed to remember that the wood isn't seasoned very long. It looks like you buy that and store it for a while at your place before use.

Maybe I am wrong though (I am working from memory).... you might want to confirm that.

Author:  John Kinnaird [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:19 am ]
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Right now I am thinking Colin is right. If it all grows in the Alps, then Swiss Alps should be as good as Italian, maybe better. The land where Heidi and her grandfather lived, coocoo clocks, watches. What do the Italians have to offer that compares. (Disregarding any works by Michelangelo, DaVinci, the coliseum, Venice, etc, etc)John Kinnaird38692.4741550926
Author:  Graham Steward [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:24 am ]
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I bought some Italian spruce from ggdelazzer who is a member of this forum. He is good to deal with. I would send him a PM.

Thanks
Author:  Mattia Valente [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 3:41 am ]
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I think GG is as good a bet as any (and better than most) for stuff you want to build with right now.

Rivolta has some really great wood, but yes, most of it is very fresh (a year, 2 years, 3 years old tops. They sell it as fast as they can saw it all up). I've never had any Swiss or Austrian spruce in my hands, but the stuff Rivolta has (from the source Strad got his stuff, more or less, so it's got that to compare, at least) can be very, very stiff (at least as good as the Adi I had the pleasure of sifting through at Steve Roberson's, which showed me the slight but real differences in looks and tap tones between them all). But..it's fresh. If you have the time to buy it, and let it age nicely, it can be a great buy (top grade E is only about 50 bucks, and a lot of their grade I stuff is very good as well. Lance has a few of those, seemed to like them). I'm still planning a trip early next year to hand-select stuff, and I'll let folks when things firm up.

Don't expect American speed of service from Rivolta, and do feel free to prod them a little if they're slow. Ask them up front how fast your wood's going to get sorted/selected/posted, since it's a fairly small, family run business (in terms of personnel. In terms of stock, it's not to be sneered at) and if they're gearing up for some trade show or other, things can slow down quite annoyingly. This said, the two or three times I've ordered from them by mail were fine, and visiting was very much worth the trip.
Author:  Tim McKnight [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:08 am ]
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John: I just received my Fiemme tops last Friday and they are very nice quality. Dr. Luigi told me that they would arrive in about 7 days and it took about 3 weeks. It's no fault of his as this was out of his control. If you are in a hurry you can contact Steve at Colonial for some Carpatian or Allied or LMI or other suppliers. It's all the same stuff as near as I can tell.
Author:  Brock Poling [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:31 am ]
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Carpathian seems to be a different beast entirely. It too seems to be very good wood but not the same. Allied is listing "german" spruce which I think might be the catch all for european spruce.... And LMI occassionally has italian spruce.... but even that sounds like it might not be the same as the stuff from Rivolta (which may be very good... I honestly don't know.... but they have a note about it in their catalog.)

Author:  Howard Klepper [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 5:55 am ]
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John, what is the question here: whether European spruce from other
countries is just as good as Italian (answer is yes), or whether you should
use something else and tell the customer it's Italian?Howard Klepper38692.5810185185
Author:  John Kinnaird [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:28 am ]
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Howard
   Can't I get a German spruce top and have it naturalized?
   REally the question was whether I can get a top from somewhere else close and call it near Italian. I am not going to lie about the origin but would like to be able to say, "Hey its the same thing" and mean it.John Kinnaird38692.6037847222
Author:  Shane Neifer [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:47 am ]
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John,

I traded some tops with Luigi. He just e-mailed me to say that he has been having some trouble shipping and recieving from Canada and the US. So we are playing the package tracking game. Anyway I sent him a package on Oct 25. He hasn't recieved it yet. I think he sent his to me a week later or so. The post office says to wait 60 days so that is another couple of weeks. If you are stuck, I will certainly send you one of the sets when it arrives and you can just send me another that you purchse from him, assuming that they get here soon. You may be able to make a similiar arrangement with others who have alreay got some of his Italian Spruce. Just let me know if this helps you out and I will get one off to you once I see it.

Shane
Author:  Arnt Rian [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:52 am ]
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Well it IS the same thing, even here in Norway it is the same thing, it's all picea abies.
Author:  Addam Stark [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:55 am ]
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John I have some great Italian Spruce If you need a top I can sell you one. It is real good stuff and I payed $60 a top for them. If you like I can put one in the box with the guitar I am finishing for you right now. That will save on shipping the guitar will be back in your hands around the 21st of the month. Let me know.
Author:  John Kinnaird [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:14 am ]
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You guys are great! That's what I love about this place.

John
Author:  RussellR [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 7:54 am ]
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John

The piece you have from me is Swiss.

I'm with Colin I prefer Swiss.
Author:  John Kinnaird [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 9:22 am ]
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That was truely a nice piece of wood Russell. It is sitting with an equally nice Brazilian Rosewood set getting ready to become something musical.

Author:  Ken Franklin [ Tue Dec 06, 2005 6:40 pm ]
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I really like the Rivolta's E grade I bought. It is creamy white and shimmering. It's very light and stiff, capable of hard driving or subtle nuances, but it does come "fresh" and you get hammered a little with the exchange rate.
Author:  ggdelazzer [ Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:27 am ]
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Glad to hear from you John

I think US luthiers are often a little confused about european spruce, it's an old story. Swiss, German, Austrian, Carpatian are different and among "Italians" I have in my... collection (?) 7-8 different subspecies that show different appearance and sound. Same species, different wood. My 0,001 euro cent advise is to consider that you are a luthier, not a taxonomist.

Howard, the answer is NO

Addam, usually sold for a 25% less

Arnt, it's the same species, not the same thing at all.

"Fiemme" and "Italian" are not the same wood. The spruce Antonio Stradivari used for his violins is Fiemme. Does Rivolta sell Fiemme spruce? The answer is bah...


A 2 kg package shipped via priority mail normally takes 8-10 days to be delivered in the US and Canada. In the last few months I experienced problems both to and from US with standard flat shipping, some wood has been lost or delivered with unespected late. I have a little extra supply I can ship to whom may be interested (I'll have a few more in the next weeks). I'd like to ship some of the good ones to the zoot man, a very agreeable person who I know will handle this wood with respect and tell you the differences.

Thanks to you all guys and Merry Christmas.
Gigi De Lazzer
Author:  Addam Stark [ Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:35 am ]
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Sure but with shipping and in Dread size the price ends up in the $55 to $60 range.
Author:  pakhan [ Wed Dec 07, 2005 9:43 pm ]
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Hi John,

I prefer the sound of Austrian over Italian but German spruce has given us very consistently great results.

We have a good stock of air dried German spruce actually logged in Germany. They are now over 5 years old and are mastergrade if anyone is interested.

Warmest regards,
Terence
Author:  ggdelazzer [ Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:21 pm ]
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In my opinion Fiemme spruce has no challengers but this is only a personal opinion and could depend on various factors, the way I choose my wood above all and the opportunity to look among tons of trunks at the source.

For less experienced fellows, I think that while we choose a top we should have clear in our minds that the differences are an added value, not a defect. The best top wood is the one you like, where it comes from is less important; but if the thing is how trunks, planks and billets are choosen, seasoned and prepared, the greatest difference is our ability in turning that piece of wood into something with a soul

Beg your pardon for my rough english. I'll buy a new dictionary

gg - wierd anesthesiologist and wood addicted
Author:  Colin S [ Wed Dec 07, 2005 11:23 pm ]
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[QUOTE=pakhan] Hi John,

I prefer the sound of Austrian over Italian but German spruce has given us very consistently great results.

We have a good stock of air dried German spruce actually logged in Germany. They are now over 5 years old and are mastergrade if anyone is interested.

Warmest regards,
Terence[/QUOTE]

Absolutely, Austrian or Swiss, is the cream of the bunch.

Arnt, have you ever used Norwegian 'Norwegian Spruce'?

Colin
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